HA project meeting

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Discussion about the reference deployment framework

1, Project Roadmap discussion

The following bullets are the plan for the 3rd-4th releases. We are planning to finish the first three bullet for the C release, and will have a start of the 4th one. We are expected to complete the HA API by the 4th release.

• HA deployment for OPNFV: Already begin

1, continue the work, try to put forward a complete deployment guide by Release C.

2, This work will have to upgrade with the OPNFV releases as well.

3, Yuanyue suggests we should discuss about HA deployment with different deployment tools

• Testing cases: Already begin

1, extend the test cases.

2, finish testing on other deployment tools

3, upgrade the user interface

• Gap analysis: Already begin

1, finish the work on Gap Analysis of Openstack

• HA API: Dependent on the work of ETSI NFV and OPNFV development

1, Work closely with other HA development teams, including OpenSAF and Senlin in Openstack. Try to unify the API.

2, Ian had some suggestions about begin with guest host API

3, ETSI work might need to wait for a while

4, Yifei suggest to work with movie team about VIM NB

1, Jonas introduces the OpenSAF project and their plan in the OPNFV. He addresses that the requirement doc for the HA project has provide the OpenSAF with some vision for how to develop the architecture to fit into NFV scenarios.

2, Jonas explained that OpenSAF will try to provide the following outputs in OPNFV

1) HA for VNF

2) HA as a service

3, Fuqiao introduce the HA project and the two demos during the last OPNFV summit.

4, The two teams reach agreements to cooperate in the following aspects:

1) Collaboratively provide HA schemes to OPNFV platforms (possible demos, codes to go into releases, and etc.)

2) Deployment guideline based on OpenSAF

3) Testing on OpenSAF solutions

4) HA API definition

5, the OpenSAF team would like to have one person to join the HA project meeting regularly, so as to know the progress of the two teams. And the two teams will have joint meetings about topics related with both of the projects.

1, HA testcases results

Yimin shares with us the test results of the HA tests in the China Mobile OPNFV testlab. The configuration parameters need more clarification. Will discuss these later in the mailing list

Ana explains their plan for these test results for the B release. Will have a document explain the test results. The HA team will review these test results as well, and make it as a joint B release output for the two teams.

More work need to be developed if we want to have a whole set of test of all the service of openstack. But due to the limited time before the deadline of B release, Ana suggests we can only finish these current tests and output the test results for the B release. We will continue the work later after the B release deadline. The China Mobile OPNFV Testlab can continiously provide the HA test infrastructure and will help with the testing.

The Yardstick test framework also will join the devotail project, and is plan to be one of the compliance tests.

2, state syncronization for gerrit

The deadline for B release is Feb. 2nd.

1) the general issue section and the multisite section have already been updated, need review from the whole team.

2) network node section:

improved a lot, had a few more questions need to be clarified. Yifei has updated new patch yesterday. Need review from the whole team.

3) Storage: Great work now. A few more questions in the review. Fuqiao will help abandon the old patch.

4) scalability: the team has a short discussion on whether we should include scalability issue in our scenario analysis doc. Edgar points out that the scalability issue is an availability problem, but not a HA problem. If we would like to narrow our scope of the project, maybe we should not include this section. But where should this issue be covered?

Ian suggests Yifei can first add a few more explaination about why scalability is an availability issue. Ian will provide comments on the gerrit about this. The other team members please also provide your ideas on the gerrit and we will decide whether we would like to include this section.

1, Committer list modification progress

fuqiao is currently working on the committer list and try to contact with those inactive committers. Most of them can be reached and have experessed understanding of this. Will organize vote for new committers after this process finishes.

2, Scenario doc discussion

1)multisite scenario-fuqiao

https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/3591/

Maria has pointed out a great point, that in the multisite scenraio, we don't need to consider failure of VNFs. therefore we only need to work on the failure of infrastructures. However, it is also difficult to try to avoid influencing the performance and availability of the VNFs while providing solution for the HA of mulstisite scenario. For example, when the VM failed, the VNFs should failover to the other standby in the same site. but when the whole site fail, it should failover to the standby at the other site.

The team has reached agreements that we should cover the scenarios first, but should leave out the details of solution. Since we don't have successful solution now.

Edgar suggest to also take the maintanance usecase as an exampel as well.

2)scaling scenario-yifei https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/3863/

Currently the catogories is quite confusing. We also need to add more explaination about why scaling is related with HA, whether we have extra requirement for HA in the scaling scenario?

3)network node availability scenario-yifei https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/3861/

can we have a big picture of the HA of the network node first? For example, how to deploy HA for the network node. Maria has listed some suggested items on the gerrit.

4)storage scenario-edgar https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/4603/

Edgar introduced the basic structure, and he will reupload a new version to make the structure more clear.

3, HA testcase review https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/4175/

Yimin from the yardstick team has proposed a new template for the test case discription. May need review from our team.

1, joint meeting with the Yardstick team for HA test cases discussion

Patric from the Yardstick team introduces the HA test cases. Lots of questions are poped for the test cases.

The first testcases seems quite clear after the meeting

The HA team will review the remain cases before the next meeting, and discuss with the Yardstick team on the etherpad.

May need another joint meeting after some discussion on the etherpad.

1, Design summit wrap-up

demo 1:

the demo can be the HA scheme for stateless VNFs, and for those stateful VNFs that do not have HA capability themselves, this demo is the best we can do. But we still would better require the application to have its own HA capability, and once the application is capable of, the NFVI should be consistantly used by the application, e.g., if the application have the state snychronization, the NFVI should not do the FT replication.

demo 2:

opensaf is a good solution for HA of applications. the OpenSAF forum will join OPNFV. we will invite the team to join our project discussion and see if it can also integrated with the senlin.

testing pools

testcases from yardstick team https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/yardstick_ha Maria has checked the testcases gerrit, and may need some help understanding what the testcases exactly are.

2, Scenario analysis doc.

The deadline for the release B doc is appoaching. Fuqiao proposed we all upload the current sessions of the scenario analysis doc onto gerrit for review. Fuqiao has already upload the two sessions. Yifei and Edgar will work on their sessions as well.

Fuqiao has also upload the pdf version of the already finished doc onto gerrit:

https://wiki.opnfv.org/_media/usecases.pdf

https://wiki.opnfv.org/_media/ha_requirement.pdf

1, OpenSAF under OPNFV

OpenSAF forum decided to close and join OPNFV as one of the project. There are some discussions in the TSC call, but not confirmed yet. Fuqiao will reaching out to the OpenSAF team and see if we could cooperate. We see that OpenSAF can be an important cluster service manager and HA deployment for VNFs and SDN controller.

2, Agenda for HA project breakout OPNFV Design Summit

1)short introduction of HA project

2) HA demo from China Mobile, Xinhui and Qiming

3) introduction of OpenSAF demo from Maria

4) Testcases of HA – peng hao from huawei

Time and location will be confirmed later

Fuqiao will not be at the summit this time. Maria will help hosting the HA project breakout.

3, Preparing for the "Introduction of HA project" on the Design Summit

Fuqiao will work on the slides

1, OPNFV Design Summit HA project session

The HA project will have a session during the design summit.

Possible agenda:

1) introduction of the HA project and our roadmap

2) HA demo from IBM and VMware

3) demo from Ericsson, Maria will share the results

4) discussion with the yardstick project, will talk with Ana (Not confirmed yet)

5) discussion with multisite project about geo redundancy usecases (Not confirmed yet)

Those who are planning to attend the HA session in the design summit can put their names on https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/OPNFV_Design_Summit_2015

We will also present our demo in the demo theater and on China Mobile booth: https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/OPNFV_Summit_demo_theater

2, committer remove process

The TSC is discussing about update the committer step down process for the project. Inactive committers will step down. We will work on this once the process is approved by the TSC.

3, requirement doc progress

Section 3 has been on the gerrit for a while. Will be merged if no other comments received by the end of this week.

Section 5 is modifyed and a new patch is on the gerrit. ready for review.

Edgar suggest we should also have gap analysis doc for each different upstream, so as to put the requirements we work out into practice. The current gap analysis doc for openstack can be a good start.

Maria also suggest we should recheck requirement doc to see if it capture the requirements mentioned in the usecase analysis doc. We will merge all the sections of the requirement doc and do the recheck afterwards.

4, Scenario doc discussion

The fist part is on the gerrit for several weeks. Will be merged to the gerrit if no other comments proposed by the end of this week.

Maria suggests we should have seperate sections including the complex scenarios we currently work on. We will then build a complete doc for release after these docs are finished seperately.

Complex scenario. https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/HA-Scenario-Analysis

multisite scenario: we had some discussion about geo redundancy scenario in multisite project. And Howard suggests, for the HA project, we will only focus on option 3 in the geo redundancy scenario, which will meet the HA requirement.

storage part: Currently Edgar captured most of the HA schemes for the hardware layer. Maria suggests we should also take the NFVI and openstack into consideration. Here is the gerrit link of the gap analysis doc. https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/664/

1, release B plan we are moving to milestone C, building 2 jira story, one for requirment doc, assign to fuqiao, the other for scenario doc, assign to Maria

release doc close at Jan. 5th

release B on Feb. 2nd

template for the release has merged to the gerrit.

2, project life cycle changes

delete all the catogory def., delete top level project. https://wiki.opnfv.org/project_lifecycle

we may put more effort on deployment and testing after B release.

3, Vaccine project

Fuqiao gave some updates on the discussion with the Vaccine project. That project decided to postpone the project proposal. Part of the group join HA project testcase definition, part join yardstick work

4, requirement doc

only fuqiao and yuanyue's session under review.

Asking for review of section 3 by the end of this week.

Fuqiao will try to contact Yuan Yue. Or will merge section 5 and continue modify that section on a new thread.

5, scenario doc

ask for review for the basic usecases

plan for new sections:

1)network node HA scenario analysis – Yifei

2)storage node HA scenario analysis – Edgar

3)network failover – fuqiao

4) multisite usecases – fuqiao

5)scaling scenarios – yifei

Fuqiao will build a etherpad page so that we can input some draft in these section and have further discussion.

6 next ETSI meeting, Edgar will be there and will have another joint meeting with the REL WG

1, The multisite team is currently working on multisite usecase doc, and is also planning on including this in release B.

2, they currently have their usecase 1 and 3 on the gerrit. usecase 2 will be on gerrit by the end of this week. Usecase 2 and 3 is quite related to HA as well.

3, The multisite project will focus on requirements on openstack in these usecases. The HA project should look into these usecases and if there is any requirements on the other components, i.e., VNF, VNFM and etc., it should be addressed in the HA project.

4, Actions for the HA project:

The HA team will look into the related usecases in multisite and provide comments.

https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/VNF_Geo_site_redundancy (will be in the gerrit by the end of this week)

https://gerrit.opnfv.org/gerrit/#/c/1438/

Maria will extend the usecase doc including the multisite usecase. The usecases will refer to the work of the multisite group.

The multisite project will only focus on the requirement of Openstack. We shall look into these usecases and add extra requirements for the components apart from openstack.

5, For Usecase 3, the snapshot. The multisite team confirms they only focus on the requirement on openstack, therefore, they consider the application level HA, whether it is based on snapshot or application level replication, is out of the scope. They will only focus on letting openstack support all these activities application will take. Please provide more comments on the gerrit if you still have questions on this part.

1, Fuqiao introduces the scope of the testting work. And 2 simple cases was presented. Taking consideration of the current ARNO HA function, we decided to use the 1st testcase, which is HA testing for the Openstack services, as a beginning for the test.

2, Ana suggest we may need to know more details about the current ARNO deployment before we can have a detail procedure to do the testing. The Yardstick team will use the China Mobile lab and figure out this. May need help from the lab for reading the logs.

3, The two teams will cooperate in developing a full set of test cases and test tools for HA tesing of OPNFV. And hopefully we can do such testing on each following releases so that we can give instructions on what HA functionalities is included in the current release and what should be added afterwards.

1, Fuqiao introduces the presentation prepared for the Nov. OPNFV summit. The speakers of presentation will also include Qiming Teng from IBM and Xinhui Li from VMware.

Maria mentioned she would also like to share some demos about providing HA using OpenSAF. She will check out if this demo could be open to the public and we will see how to combile these two demos.

2, The whole team goes through the process of Gerrit.

Session 3 need to be split into two subsession, one is traditional hypervisor, the other is the middleware added for Carrier Grade NFV.

Session 4 needs modification by Ian.

Session 5 needs some more work from Yuan Yue.

Usecase doc is still worked on. Expect some update recently.

3, Fu Qiao talk about the cooperation with Yardstick about HA testcases and test tool development. We will have a joint meeting next week with the Yardstick team. We will suggest some test cases as a start, and the Yardstick team will help developing some test tools.

Fu Qiao suggest this work could continiously expand, so that we can finnaly have a full set of testcases of HA and also a full set of test tools. For each release of OPNFV, we can do these tests and refer to the whole community what cases has passed for this release and what else can be done.

Fu Qiao will work out some basic test cases and send out to the mailing list. Need discussion within the mailing list to see which case is better to be a start for such cooperation and development.

1, gerrit update.

Section 2, Section 3, Section 4 have got no comments in the passing weeks. Call for the whole team to give final comments. If no further comments by the end of this week, fuqiao will merge these 3 section.

Section 6 received some comments from Lijun about the fomat of rst file. Larry will help looking into this. Fuqiao will reach out to Lijun to check out what is missing for the whole project.

Section 5 receives some comments, need modification by Yuan Yue.

2, OPNFV Hackfest update

Fu Qiao gave some update about the REL WG joint meeting last week. The REL WG shows some interest in our work, and hope we can also refer to their work in the scenario analysis doc and requirement doc. They also gave some suggestions about the HA API work. They suggest we refer to IFA 005 and IFA 006 for the or-vi and vnfm-vi interfaces. The hardware interface is out of scope of ETSI NFV. And there is no work on the vnf-nfvi interface currently. They suggest if we have requirement for this interface, we can work it out and output to ETSI as well.

REL WG suggest to find a specific person both interested in the REL WG and the HA project to build the connection between these two projects. No one raise hand on the meeting to be this connection from our team though. Will reach out to the team.

3, Scenario analysis doc

Maria has prepared a draft for this doc and has updated it to the gerrit. Haven't got much comments on the call. The structure seems great and Fuqiao suggest to use this structure and finish the draft by including all the usecases already discussed in the slides. Further discussion is needed to include more usecases (multisite and scaling)

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1, Fu Qiao introduced the plan for the 2nd and future releases.

2, The agreement is reached that we will propose to release the requirment doc and the scenario analysis doc for the 2nd release.

3, Maria will prepare a draft for the scenario doc and bring to the team for discussion

4, Fuqiao will try to talk with the ETSI NFV REL WG for HA API work.

5, There are suggestions that the release of our project should also include interfaces with the other projects (e.g. Multisite, Escalator, Doctor, and etc.). Maria will try to address the multisite scenario in the scenario draft and point it to the multisite project for further info (may need further discussion with the multisite project)

6, Yuan Yue suggest our gap analysis should not only cover openstack, but also cover ODL, pacemaker, and even OPNFV itself.

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1, Qiming Teng introduces his work in Openstack. Include approach to realize HA in Openstack. He is currently working on the Senlin project, which provides cluster service. In the Senlin Project, HA can act as a policy.

Yuan Yue asked if this can provide HA for the VNF. Qiming answered that the Senlin project is only providing the cluster service, you can use it at the host level, the VM level and the VNF level. But currently it can not provide HA for stateful and stateless VNFs.

Fu Qiao asked if this still have problem of scalability since it use pacemaker as the cluster engine. Qiming explained yes, but they are trying to solve this by using cluster of clusters.

We may seek for future cooperation with the Senlin Project.

2, Gerrit update.

Session 1 is merged. Thank you for Ian.

Other sessions still have comments not solved. Need modification.

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1, Gerrit Updates.

Section 1 and Section 6 seems to be matured. The review will be closed by the end of this week and we will summit the final patch at the beginning of next week.

Other sections need more comments and modifications.

2, Deployment framework

Fu Qiao shared a few slides about the deployment guideline. Gaps for the current Openstack and OPNFV platforms can be found. Further discussion and testing should be done before this deployment guideline is ready.

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1, Gerrit Update.

Section 1-4, section 6 have been uploaded to Gerrit.

Yuan Yue is still working on Section 5.

Yifei has uploaded the Gap Analysis.

2, Future working item discussion

Fu Qiao has suggested several future working items for this project. Several team members gave comments and suggestions. The main thoughts are captured as follows.

1) API definition. One of the working items included in our project proposal.

There are suggestions that this work should be coordinated with the ETSI NFV work. The ETSI NFV will release its requirement doc by July. We shall arrange a discussion to make sure our requirement doc be noticed by the ETSI NFV WG. And further working on the the API definition in a collaborative way.

2) HA related test cases and specification development.

This working item is suggested by the TSC. We may need testing experties to join this work. In the meantime, what our requirement project should do is to generate test cases and specifications, while the testing project will help excuting the tests.

3) Reference deployment architecture for High Available OPNFV platform.

We shall develop deployable architectures for a high available OPNFV platform. Such architecture may include, for example, VNF should have its own HA at the VNF level, Storage HA architecture, and etc..Both Maria and Georg's work can be a good start. This architecture will provide guidance for people to deploy a high available end to end NFV environment.

1, Gerrit progress

2, Storage section

Will be merged to multiple sections instead of being a standalone section.

1, fuqiao summirizes the HA session during the openstack summit.

2, Fuqiao introduces the discussion about cooperation between HA project and ETSI NFV project during the ETSI NFV meeting in Sanya. REL WG in ETSI NFV suggest we can have regular communication between the two projects. Some one from the the two projects can act as interface.

3, Ian and Maria give updates about the Git/Gerrit

4, Georg gives a summary of the storage HA proposal during the Openstack summit. will post the slides to the wiki page and the mailing list for further discussion

1, HA scenario discussion. Conclusion may inlcude as follows:

1) Redundancy is required at the VNF level so as to meet the SAL recovery time of Carrier-Grade HA requirement.

2) VNF failure detection and failover can be managed by the VNF or the VNFM. There could be multiple ways to realized the HA schema in the VNF level.

2, slides for the hackfest is discussed. Work about the scenarios should be added into.

3, requirement doc. Session 3,4,5,6 can be delivered to the Git. Storage session needs to be discussed more.

1. Git/Gerrit update

2. Vancouver meeting material discussion – Fu Qiao

3. Requirement doc update – Fu Qiao

1. Maria mentioned about the cooperation with doctor and esculator project and ETSI HA WG.

2. Go through the requirement doc

3. Sean share the HA work in openstack

There are no native HA schema in openstack. It's the architecture operators deploy that provides HA protection for openstack. Most API for openstack use active/active, and L4-L8 LB. Neotron API can not provide active/active HA architecture. Data storage traditionally support HA. Different hypervisor also support different features (example of live migration). Architecture of storage also have influence on HA and latency. Gap of openstack is mainly on the network side (ovs). We can look into the HA architecure of Fuel and Formane to have more general idea of HA for openstack.

4. Gerrit delivery

5. Vanconver Meetup

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1mgmnYnI

- Ian presented the introductory section of the requirement document

o Maria suggested to look at the Doctor project’s requirement document, also that compared to Doctor the HA project has a bigger scope touching different layers and planes in the system, which would be good to point out

o Yuri suggested to add a figure that shows this bigger scope and indicate what are the different targets with respect to these different subsystems

- What kind of availability we want to support for VMs

o Agreement that VIM should control it ()

o Yuri said VM recovery at this level cannot satisfy stringent time requirements as it is today and that requires VNF solution

o Hui Deng suggested that it’s a feature nice to have, so we should look at possibilities

- Are we ready to transfer the etherpad document to gerrit

o Ian suggested to review the etherpad document and decide

o Ian has experience with gerrit and can help with the transition

o Conclusion is that the sections 1.2-1.4 and 2 are in good shape to transfer others need more discussion

 We seem to be OK with the time requirements as they are currently

o Section 3 needs a bit more review/elaboration

 question: Is the nova agent on the compute node part of the VIM?

o Section 4

 Instead of addressing the load balancer and other NF individually we should address the HA requirement of NFs provided in the infrastructure (e.g. load balancer, firewall)

1. HA Blueprint discussion–Zhipeng, Joe

Questions:

[Ian] since the multisite project is not created yet, this bp may be different from the architecture the multisite team eventially works out.

[Maria] Questions about the redundancy scheme for the token for different site.

[yuanyue] This bp may have extra requirement for nova and neotron to configure a secendary keystone server.

[yuanyue] Does this bp have extra requirement for the network between the different site. (chaoyi: may have some requirement for the latency)

[Ryota] since this bp is related with the keystonemiddle ware, is keystone the right place to propose?

2. HA requirement doc discussion–fuqiao

the whole team please review the requirement document and input comments and questions on the etherpad page.https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/High_Availabiltiy_Requirement_for_OPNFV

Ian and Yuanyue will go through the Virtual infrastructure part and the VIM part and check out if the modification is ok. Please make modification if you find other requirements in other parts which may have relationship with your parts.

Ian will work on the frame work of the HA

fuqiao will work on the definition part

Yifei will go through the requirement doc and see if there is other gap from our requirements

1, Virtual infrustucture Part-Ian

comments and modifications are put into the etherpad page.

2, gap analysis

2) pacemaker-servicegroup-driver

pacemaker in the compute node may not scale well

Ted:does pacemaker need a driver?

The group reached an agreement that the gap exists

===

1, Ted: adding HPI and openHPI into the architecture work.

2, For now, the VIM HA part will only address the HA scheme for VIM. And we will go through the whole document after we finish each part and see what is missing, and also to coordinate each part.

3, Ted: should not address floating IP in the requirement document. Should just point out high lever requirements.

4, Ryota: neotron architecture now is not good, should have seperate API and process

Yue: that is why we define 2 kinds of nodes, stateless and stateful, and define different policy for these two.

5, Ted: who to report to the alarm, what component to monitor the compute node?

Yue: Hardware controller will monitor the hardware for the compute node.

Ted: suggest to also add compute alarm requirements (already done in other parts)

6, fuqiao: who will be in charge of control node HA:

Yue: heatbeats between control nodes. only the software solution.

7, Maria: alarm also should be logged

8, Maria: should provide some criteria on the VIM HA, such as five nines, or the outage time

Yue: how to accomplish these numbers?

Ian: suggest to have five nines, since VIM is very important.

Maria: suggest at lease four nines

High Availability Project meeting

HA project weekly meeting

Wed, Mar 4, 10:00 PM Beijing, (6:00am, PST)

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone. https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/470792893

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1, BP for Openstack L release

2, requirement doc update

• VIM part: Yuan Yue

3, Gap analysis of Openstack (Yifei Xue)

4, arrangement of our next meeting

High Availability Project meeting

HA project weekly meeting Thu, Feb 26, 10:00 PM Beijing time (6:00am PST)

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone. https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/318543973

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1, update of Prague Hackfest

2, BP for Openstack L release

3, requirement doc update

• VNF part: Maria

• VIM part: Yuan Yue

4, Gap analysis of Openstack (Yifei Xue)

5, arrangement of our next meeting

High Availability Project meeting

Wed, Feb 11, 10:00 PM Beijing (6:00am PST)

• Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/767529453

• You can also dial in using your phone.

United States (Long distance): +1 (646) 749-3122

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1, Contact person for the project

2, Etherpad page for the requirement document. Please feel free to add your comments, suggestions and inputs directly into this page.

https://etherpad.opnfv.org/p/High_Availabiltiy_Requirement_for_OPNFV

3, requirement doc update

• software part: Fu Qiao

• VNF part: Maria

4, arrangement of our next meeting

Wed, Feb 4, 10:00 PM, Beijing time. (6:00am, PST.)

• Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/631890413

• You can also dial in using your phone.

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Canada (Long distance): +1 (647) 497-9353

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1, requirement doc update

• Hardware part: Fu Qiao

• software part: Fu Qiao

• Virtual infrastructure part: Ian

• Vim part: Yuan Yue

• VNF part: Maria

2, discussion about session in Prague.

• Possible topics:

What do requirement docs need to include? Usecases or bullet of requirements?

3, arrangement of our next meeting